A Strategic CIO Interview featuring Steve Bandrowczak talking about Leadership.
Phil: Welcome. I’m Phil Weinzimer and this is The Strategic CIO, where we invite IT thought leaders to share their insights on the challenges and opportunities for leveraging information and technology in today’s digital economy.
Today we’re going to talk about leadership in the digital age. So let me just set the stage here. We all remember Blockbuster, we all remember Circuit City, those names have gone, okay. They’re being replaced by Uber and Amazon that’s displaced the music industry.
It’s really interesting what’s going on. John Chambers from Cisco has been quoted as saying that in the next 5, 10 years, probably 40% of the Fortune 500 companies may disappear. And why is that? That’s because leaders in our – and companies today don’t really recognize the power of information and technology. They need to think about that not only as an enabler, but as really part of their business strategy.
And there’s really no one better to help us understand what that is than my guest for today’s show, and that’s Steve Bandrowczak. Steve, welcome.
Steve: Phil, great to be here.
Phil: Steve is Senior Vice President for Global Business Services and Business Process Services at Hewlett-Packard. That’s a big title, but a big title comes with a lot of responsibilities. So, that’s two business units.
Steve: Two business units.
Phil: About 18,000 people each.
Phil: That’s really – that’s amazing. That’s amazing. So let’s talk a little bit. So I think what would help – because you have a really interesting background. You started out in IT later in your career and I think it would be interesting to share what your background was, the various companies you’ve worked for, and then what are some of the lessons learned that helped you become the CIO and now, Senior VP of two business units at Hewlett-Packard.
Steve: Yeah. Phil, I’ve had the ability of having a blessed background. I started very early in my career in technology, literally working in [inaudible 00:02:22] many, many years ago in the network area, in IT, I’ve worked operations. And through the years, I got to a company called Avnet, where I worked from driving and leading, implementing local area networks.
I went up to then run operations, responsibility for data centers or technologies, and I became the Chief Information Officer at Avnet. Through that process, the last 10 years, we had done 40 acquisitions. I was doing one integration per quarter. And as part of that process, you learn an awful – a lot about business processes, how to put businesses together, how to build and how to create new companies of companies that you have acquired.
From there, I was the CIO for DHL. At DHL, we were shutting down one data center per month, goes on for five years. We have done big acquisitions like Exel. We have done a big acquisition called Airborne. But the other piece of that was, I had a $1 billion revenue stream as part of my IT organization because we were providing logistics solutions, electronic solutions from the IT department to customers, and I had a $1 billion dollar P&L.
I learned an awful lot about how do you churn up supply change, how do you churn up and integrate with customers. From there, I had the pleasure of going and being a part of, carving out the IBM PC Division. I was the first CIO for Lenovo, so I was part of the first team that took the IBM PC asset, which was around $11 billion and combined that with a $4 billion domestic Chinese company, Lenovo. I had a chance to build the global end-to-end processes and take those two companies, which now is close to a $30 plus billion enterprise.
When I left Lenovo, I had a chance to go be a part of Nortel. Unfortunately, at that part of the story, I was trying to save Nortel, the enterprise, if you remember, was a $300 billion market cap company. I went over there, started as a CIO, ran and built shared services, and then I went to run the North American Business Unit as a General Manager. Nortel went into bankruptcy. And I was part of the team that sold that entity to Avaya.
When I went over to Avaya, I became the President of the Network Division for three years, and then I was hired and had the privilege of going back into the CIO role when I entered HP to run the Enterprise Services CIO Business Unit. And then from there, about two years ago, I was asked to run Global Business Services, which is all the back-end functions and to run the BPS business.
Phil: So, that’s interesting. Your background is both business, you’ve been head of sales, you’ve been CIO, back to the business stack. You really understand how business operates. A lot of organizations’ CIOs, and some of those that I’ve spoken to, really don’t understand the power of how business process has really enabled business. They’re thinking about technology and how we can just implement the next new application, as opposed to really trying to connect that to the business process, which really provides the value to both internal and external customers.
So, to help our viewers, because I think you can really help them is, what’s the value of business services as part of a strategy that CxOs really need to incorporate?
Steve: I think there’s a couple of points there, Phil. If you go back seven, eight years ago, it was around how do you reduce your labor cost, how do you create centers that are in low-cost countries, high-value, educated workforce, but low labor cost. And it was a transactional, how do you lower the transaction cost through labor arbitrage. That has dramatically enhanced and evolved through the years. And there’s a couple of things that are really important to that now. One, obviously you can create great talented centers and labor-optimized spots around the world, but more importantly, you now can start to centralize and standardize on your business processes. We all have been trying to do that with rolling out large ERP systems and we always love that idea of getting a global standard process. When you create these centers, the value is when you run those transactions, you now have a single location where you’re seeing how your company operates. We run about 70% of all HP’s processes and transactions through the centers.
So first standardizing on processes. You then have the ability to do certain things like understanding your business end to end. What most companies do is the finance team understand the finance transactions, your sales team understands the sales transactions, receivables team understands the receivables transaction. As a perfect example, we had $9 billion debt on the balance sheet three years ago. We now are $6 billion in cash flow positive. And the way to do that is not by squeezing receivables, not by changing all the terms for your customers, but looking at your business end-to-end. Your order management system impacts your receivables. Your terms and conditions on contracts impacts your receivables. And the reality is when you start looking at your business end-to-end, you can start to define and how do you improve your business model.
Second thing that you can do is you now construct a benchmark, each area in terms of cycle times and in terms of per-unit cost. First, an example, a purchase order or a receivable, what’s the cost per receivable and what’s the cycle time on that. And we start benchmarking that, you now can start to create what is the best-in-class opportunity to improve your business and then start to apply technology standards, Lean, Six Sigma, et cetera.
So the second point is you get to get standard business process with good view and good metrics. Last thing is, and we’ve been doing this really heavily here at HP over the last couple of years, you can now take those low-value transactions and now throw robotics at it, now throw technology at it so that you can actually eliminate anybody touching the actual process themselves, creating high-quality, lower-cost transactions.
Phil: So that’s interesting. So when you talk before, just before about end-to-end processes, so the end-to-end over the past 5 to 7 years is stretching, is stretching beyond what organisations considered inside the wall. They’re going out on one end to the customer, on the other end, out to the strategic partner. So the way value is being created today is really leveraging information and technology across the virtual value chain. So help us understand in terms of how you think about it, how companies can improve the value they provide, not only in the internal business processes, but through partnerships with their strategic relationships, with their suppliers, and then on the other end, with the whole distribution, logistics and customer accounting.
Steve: Well, I think one of the things we got to do, Phil, is we’ve lose the traditional way in which we looked at business. We look at it and we call it a digital halo, the ability to be able to look at the entire ecosystem and how do you provide that end experience to your end customer. If you look at today in the consumer world, the digital halo around you, I know your presence and location, I know your preference in terms of your calendar, I know whether you like movies, videos. I know, based how you lean left or right politically. And we have created value and solutions in the consumer world around you for that digital halo. You can see where you arrive at the airport and you get marketed to. You can see how you get from Point A to Point B here in Manhattan when you want to go find a Starbucks. Uber, another disruptive. What we’re starting to see now is in the business world, that same digital halo across processes.
So, we’re now starting to look at what are all the digital attributes, what are all the factors around your business processes. So real-world example, we used to look at supply chain. We used to take big MRP systems and we used to take supply and demand, supply coming from the sales team, demand coming from your customers, supply coming from your manufacturers that you bought and we kind of created this pseudo – what’s going to happen in a supply chain. Well, we now look at other things like weather. We now look at social media in terms of what employees at the manufacturing plants are talking about and saying, so we don’t see a strike and we don’t see employee interruptions the day it’s announced on CNN versus we could have seen it on social media.
We look at seismic data. Is there something happening? You think about what happened with Japan and the tsunami and you take a look at the seismic data days before would have given us indication that some of that was going to happen. So you now need to look at the digital landscape of what is happening inside of your overall ecosystem from your business and you can now start to do things like drive new business paradigms. In the traditional way in which we look, we all think about how traditional competitors, HP think about IBM, take a look at UPS thinking about DHL, UPS now worries about Amazon, what business is Amazon in, would Uber fit into competing against UPS? Well, if I’ve got a driver and I got a trunk, I got a place to put packages. Is Uber going to interfere with UPS and DHL?
As DHL, we used to have 10 O’clock next-morning delivery. We were the star, 10 O’clock next-morning. Amazon, two-hour delivery here in Manhattan. We changed the model, we change the business paradigm. So what we have to do as executive CxOs, we’ve got to look at those digital disruptives, not just on traditional business, but look out on the horizon and leverage all of that digital halo around business processes, look for disruptions, look for new ways of doing business, the banking industry, take a look at what’s happening with bitcoin, PayPal, Apple Pay, JPMorgan, you go take a look at Citibank, they never thought about those technologies 10 years ago. And now we’re starting to see, if you combine those, they’re bigger than the RBS Bank today.
So the digital disruptives are something that we have to start thinking about and we’ve got to start thinking about this digital halo around our businesses.
Phil: So that’s interesting. I mean traditionally, CxOs, VPs and Directors think about business process that took all the cost out. Now they’re looking – they’re looking at it myopically, in a way. They’re not looking at it and saying what can we do differently, how do we disrupt the marketplace, like create new value. And fortunately today, that is all enabled with technology. So that gets into the discussion of leadership.
So you take that part of the digital halo that you talk about, and what advice would you give to other CxOs to help them to start thinking about that? Because it’s a whole – at the executive level, it’s a way of thinking differently. At the tactical level, it’s a whole change in [inaudible 00:14:08]. But to take the first question from a CxO perspective, how would you help them understand how they should change your thinking because at a blink of an eye, their market cap’s going to [inaudible 00:14:22] to zero.
Steve: Maybe there are a couple ways. Number one, we look at IT spend and what can be done inside the enterprise. I will argue that no longer is a barometer or a valid metric. Citibank used to think about $4 billion of IT spend, they had a differentiator. There had an IT organisation that nobody was going to have $4 billion of spend. Well, guess what, the pervasiveness of technology, there are hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on behalf of the enterprise. We just don’t take advantage of it, it’s called pervasive networks, it’s called pervasive mobile computing. You think about 5 billion mobile devices today, more devices than laptops. You think about – we used to do training in China, and we used to have to train all in uses, on using technology, that’s all there. So the first thing is to take advantage of the investments that are being made on behalf of you as the enterprise and extend and leverage that.
Traditional businesses and traditional IT organisations really try to limit themselves to their four-walls, the data they have, the enterprise system they have. Number one, think differently, understand this consumer experience is changing our consumers and customer expectation on what good looks like. Your experience in banking today is no longer walking in and getting the happiest teller, it happens to be through a mobile device. Your experience in the airline industry is you and your mobile industry and that digital experience, the machine is in multiple industries. So the first thing is to leverage this transformation, this transition of this pervasiveness of technology.
Second, you got to have people in your business that thing different. I will argue if you have people that know your industry really well and those are the people that are setting the target for your future, you’re [inaudible 00:16:20].
What has gotten HP successful over the last 75 years is the exact thing that will put us out of business 75 days from now if we don’t think differently. And that requires a lot of different skills, innovation skills, that requires more of the consumer experience in terms of bringing that thinking into it. I would also think it’s conditioning and driving how and where is your business going to be disrupted. It’s not when, it’s how and where. And if you don’t look for that horizon and you don’t look for that traditionally, you’re going to get blind-spotted. Ubers are going to come up, the Amazons are going to come up, the Alibabas are going to come up. The reality is the environment that we play in today is dramatically changing.
Phil: So here’s an interesting question as a follow-on. And it’s around the subject of the art of the possibles or the art of impossible. And I know that one of your competencies is, in essence, you’re realistic. And what I mean by that? I mean you have a vision, you have experiences where you’re willing to improve a process or project paradigm at DHL, we’ll talk about that, and you said, look, if we finally get this done. And you set a timeline and we’ll talk about metrics later. The challenge is, you’ve got a group of people who go, Steve, it’s full of you know what, that’ll never happen. How the hell are we going to do it? So you’ve got a real skill in helping people really understand, don’t think negatively, just think about how to make it happen. How have you developed that and what are some examples of where you really help people think about the art of the possible?
Steve: I think there’s a couple of things first, Phil. First of all, I start with the premise that everybody wants to look, no team wants to lose. And what I found through the years is building that winning environment, building that target stretch and thinking and people achieving that. When you build that hey-we’re-never-going-to-get-there type of goal in a business change or a project change, build milestones along the way, they’re achievable right away. The teams want to win. And sometimes, somebody’s programs are 6 months, 9 months, 10 months out, you can’t wait for the end goal to be successful. What of those early wins? Number one, celebrate that, build an environment where people can truly feel like they’re innovative, they’re contributing, get momentum. Success breeds success. We’ve seen some phenomenal, phenomenal teams that don’t win championships.
You take a look at what’s happening with Cleveland now. Cleveland should not be up 2-1. But they’ve got an incredible win. And by the way, after they got through their first game, we can do this, they win the second game. They win the third game. Now everybody’s talking, well, Cleveland is now the favorite. They get this momentum, okay, and people do what they never thought they can do. So, creating that environment in the team and that winning atmosphere setting, bring in new people, bring in new ideas, bring in fresh ideas. We have today – over 80% of all of our new hires are early career -are early career.
The IT department typically takes early career employees and they don’t allow them to touch anything for five years. For me, it’s five seconds. When you get in, all of that great thinking about what good looks like, you bring that to the enterprise. Why do you push them to the back for five years? By the way, they’ll never last five years. The first year, they’re gone, you lose them and you’re worried about, why do I have to turnover with my millennials? Because you haven’t leveraged the value.
Steve: Okay, they will teach you more about an user experience and what great looks like. I had one just here in this room less than 24 hours ago, was phenomenal, phenomenal. First time I heard this. He says to me, he says if I got to go to my phone for a solution to fix a problem, it’s already broken. Think about that. We set up help desks, we set up all kinds of mechanisms for when stuff happens to fix it. Now basically what you’re saying is, if it breaks and I have a look at it in my phone, it’s already a problem, already a problem. So it gives you a different thing.
Phil: When you’re talking about millennials and giving five seconds to getting something to do, I’ve read and heard about a CIO who – and we’re getting into the project governance space. What he did is he took an early career employee, then kid, and made sure that every project that was going through the IT organisation, he had final QA on. And everybody are really upset. They said, why are you doing this? Well, as you know, kids today, they know what works well, so why not have them – he’s not being diffused by what goes on in years of experience. It’s true, and it’s part of the disruptive change of management process by letting early career employees who really understand about technology and how it improves the process, get them involved quickly.
Steve: It is. And it turns STLC on its life cycle. It changes what an architect means. It changes what a tenured, if you’re a career veteran in the IT, oh this – what value they bring. You have to allow early career employees to have a tremendous impact upfront if you want to have their value through the roll-out and deployment of solutions that you have in a company.
Phil: So, let’s talk about project governance because I think today, one of the big challenges organisations have across the enterprise is really doing more of less. And it’s all about selecting the right project, to make sure it has business value, and the other part is efficiently delivering it. So, less risk, if you can proactively identify risk, you can improve cycle time. But picking the right project, especially in your roles, you’re surrounded by people who say, Steve, I need this project. I need this – this one’s more important than the other one.
And you’ve got to play Solomon and sort of figure out which project is the one that’s going to get into the portfolio because everybody, just like you said before, the VP of Marketing, they understand marketing. They don’t care about it. It’s their project is more important than the other – they don’t – as they look peripherally across the organization, their organization is more important than anything else’s. So, how do you apply sort of principles of good project governance or I call the art of project governance in ensuring that the organization’s going to work on the right projects.
Steve: It’s something within the IT profession we’ve been struggling with for many years, and I think there’s two parts to this film. First is, how do you have everybody contributing to innovation? Everybody. I don’t care where you are in the company, I don’t care where you are in the IT organization, everybody contributes to innovation. It could be a simple idea in terms of improving cycle time, improving whatever it may be, but everybody contributes to innovation. If you wait for big projects to make changes to your company, you’re going to slow down everything you do.
So first and foremost, you break it into two. How do you get those innovative ideas and how do you allow them to everyday, daily, make your business better? You then may achieve projects that just need significant support, significant governance. And there – what we’ve always made the big mistake is, we’ve never aligned it to the business outcome. We create big SAP implementations or big technology implementations. We put it in and then we questioned what the value was. Nobody even mentioned what the current process output is before the project was in, or sometimes yeah, we know what the revenue was, or we’ll know what the cycle time is, implement something. And we stop measuring it or we stop holding people accountable for what the change is.
So I think relative to governance, there’s two pieces of it. There is, what are the metrics and what are the processes you put in place during that governance, pre implementation design, post-implementation, right executive sponsorship. If you don’t have a business owner with a P&L that’s saying, yes, this is going to change, and there’s only two things: revenue, profitability. That’s it. Okay. Everything else is just emotion. How many people implemented, even Salesforce, a great piece of software, hundred companies will implement it, they get 100 different results. Okay.
The sales executive says, look, I’m going to take an increase, my sales target, sales productivity goal, we’re aligned. Now you see you have success because they’ll find a way of making sure that the changes in their business processes, the changes in their organization drive the results they were looking for. So I think it’s the governance of having P&L owner, along with making sure that you got the right metrics, pre-implementation, post-implementation to make sure that you get the results you look for.
Phil: So, leads me to another subject, so you run two very large organizations, and one person can’t do it alone, so in terms of people development – and you have lot of experience with different organisations with different cultures, so that’s terrific, is how do you look at people development? What do you think is working well and what do you think others should avoid doing because they fall into sort of this perennial trap of kind of following this formula. I don’t think formulas work in every instance. I think you’ve got a look at the environment. Because of all the experience you’ve had, I’d really be interested in your philosophy on people development.
Steve: Well, I’d say if you’re into real-world examples. When I walked into Nortel, the head of HR gave me the current IT staff and how they were running, went through it and I read them. A month later, it was completely upside down. The best person was the head of technology and infrastructure. Second was the best in project management and on and on and on. Down at the bottom was somebody who absolutely knew how to develop people. So my pyramid is, I’m not starting with technologies. I believe leaders have certain attributes. They can drive and develop future leaders. They drive energy. They have the ability to take what you talk about that impossible, set that vision and make people do great things.
They have the ability to understand that their responsibility each and every day is to drive an environment where people are energized, people are excited, people want to win and they develop and they empower everybody through the organization. I don’t need to have a PhD in IT technology to be a great leader in technology. By the way, I’ve run the sales team, I’ve run operations. I didn’t have any experience when I ran the sales team. But I knew how to develop leaders and I knew how to create a vision that ran a winning environment.
So for me leadership at the CxO will be just having people around you that truly know and understand how to be a true leader, and there’s a lot of attributes to that. And I put a premium on people who develop people, who understand that their role is to develop organizations, who understand that their role is to create visions and make people better.
Phil: So, that’s a good philosophy, I should say. It will work. So, in terms of leadership, you’ve got a lot of experience. And when I look at leaders, one of the things that I think sets some leaders apart from other leaders is wanting to give back to the community because they have great experience. And I know you do some of that. So number one, why is that important? And what are some of the things you’re doing to help give back to the community, help other CxOs understand it and share the successes you’ve had and the learnings because all the successes and learnings come from experience and failure – that’s the only way you learn.
Steve: First of all, I don’t think any of us gets to this level without a whole lot of help. And somewhere along the line, getting your break where somebody has supported us, the environment was right. And there – so my philosophy has always been, I want to give back. I’ve got the privilege of having over 12 people that have worked for me, that are CIOs, very, very proud of that. We here at HP are always striving to give back to the community not because we want to measure them with community hours. When I go into my center in India or I go into my centers in China and Poland, and you sit down on the floor with children that are coming in that are less fortunate than you, you build a bond as an employee and as employees to the social responsibility that you have, to give back to your community.
You no longer are that, I clock in at 8:00, I leave at 5:00. Okay, we talk about, as a HP community. It’s not the 300,000 employees. It’s the 5, 6 family members that are extended to – and by the way, the 20 neighbors that are in your environment. So we talk about – we are impacting tens of millions of lives. We develop and we’re a part of ecosystems around the world. I am Chairman of a nonprofit called SAMFund, been doing it for 10 years now, where young cancer survivors need help. I do it because it’s my way of saying thank you, my way of saying how do I give back to the community, how do I give back to the environment. It was fortunate for me to be able to be successful.
And I think it’s a great, great team builder. It’s a great way to let your teams and the people around you know that you care about something else other than the activities that you’re doing internally – inside your company.
Phil: That’s great, that’s great something, you should really be proud of.
Steve: I’m more proud that I had the ability to help people, to now go out and do the same thing that I have done for years.
Phil: It is one thing about being proud of your success. It’s another thing about being proud and helping other people succeed, so I applaud you for that. So I forgot to ask you this question earlier, so I’m sort of like switching subjects, because you talked about metrics before. And metrics are really important. So everybody talks about measurement in success. Everybody talks about metrics. It can be a gazillion metrics like you said earlier, IT spend $40 million. It’s too high. I mean, it doesn’t mean anything. So what’s your view on metrics and how do you choose the right metrics?
Steve: So I try to boil it down, when I joined HP and I was the CIO for Enterprise Services, my vision was 1010. And the team, when they first heard me say 1010, they were like, what are you talking about? Is it less than 10 outages per year? Well, what is the 1010? It’s very simple. You’re going to drive 10% revenue increase, 10% profitability improvement. It’s that business acumen that understands that the processes, the system changes, the things that you do eventually have to turn out to materialize to drive shareholder value. The easiest way for people to see that is in either revenue or profitability.
So I try to, from a management standpoint, I try to tie everything to them. My data center being 5/9th, I don’t care about data center being 5/9s at 1 o’clock in the morning when I’m not shipping orders. I care about it when I’m in the middle of the day, it better be more than 5/9ths because I’m impacting my supply chain and my customer. So metrics in themselves, if it’s not driving revenue, it’s not driving profitability. And I think that’s something that the IT organization needs to have and that is a lot more P&L and business acumen.
We used to talk about IT organization as being aligned. We’re not being aligned with anything anymore. You got to have business-savvy, you got to understand what drives the P&L, what drives sales? What drives your supply chain and what are those things that you can help to go drive those things, then you’re relevant, then you’re part of the success of a company.
Phil: So it’s interesting that you talk about being relevant. Filippo Passerini uses that term all the time, and also the whole concept of business outcomes. And I know a lot of organizations’ CxOs, they will have their pet projects. And you seem to have a real, real focus on achieving business outcomes, which is right because if you can’t achieve business outcomes, you’re not going to improve sales, and you’re not going to improve profitability and shareholder value. I mean, there’s the stock price also . So I think that’s really important.
So, in closing, let me ask you this. I’ve written this down because I thought about this and how to sort of culminate our discussion. So here’s what it looked. I’d say, Steve, what advice would you offer CxOs and how they can leverage information and technology to improve business outcomes?
Steve: Well, I think there’s a couple of things, Phil. I think first, CxOs in general need to think about this pervasiveness of technology. I talked about this digital halo, and I really mean everything we do today has [inaudible 00:34:36] by over it that gives us insight to that. You think about how much we used to try to monitor and collect customer data. What was Phil’s buying pattern? How many laptops did you buy? What type of [inaudible 00:34:51]? That’s irrelevant today. I want to know what kind of music you like. I want to know what videos you watch, then I can create an experience for you around the actual device.
So the first thing is just pervasiveness of technology and this pervasiveness of the consumerization is driving our new experiences, expectation of about how you board planes, the expectations about how do you go to a bank, it’s absolutely driving new paradigms, at a pace of rate in which we’ve never talked about before.
So there’s an underlining technology component in it, but it’s now more driven by consumer expectations, the pervasiveness and the ease of technology, first. Second, this innovation. We used to think about innovation in three and five-year cycles. We need to start think about innovation in three and five-minute cycles. The cycle times are incredible because if you’re not thinking that way, somebody else is. It used to be somebody at Silicon Valley who used to work out of HP or AT&T Labs or any of the big companies, IBM, that’s where all the smart thinking was coming from.
Now we get three, four people in a room in Silicon Valley and up comes new result, up comes clinical lab testing that disrupts the entire medical testing industry because somebody at 19 had the audacity to say, I want to go change the way labs are being done. I want to go and change the way in which – and the quickness by which we can do analysis on blood and give your results. Know here by the way, labs, you don’t own that anymore as a user, I know. Why can that company be successful? The pervasiveness, the pervasiveness of computing power, that I don’t have to have my own data center. I don’t have to have my own storage. I don’t have to have my own search engine. I don’t have to have my own networks worldwide.
That pervasiveness of technology allows me to take a thought on innovation and now implement that at a rate that I’ve never seen before. And I don’t need the barrier of having billions of dollars of capital. In fact, I will argue that billions of dollars of capital has made us arrogant to think that there was a barrier to entry into our world. All of a sudden, up pops the Amazons, up pops the Ubers, up pops the Alibabas. And the reality is, today, we’ve got to stop thinking differently about where the next disruptor is coming from.
Phil: It’s really great. That was really good. I really enjoyed it.
Steve: Thank you, appreciate it.
Phil: It’s a great conversation. So there you have it. Leadership in the digital age. My suggestion is, watch this tape a couple of times because there are a lot of golden nuggets here from Steve that I think had really helped each and every one of you in your careers. So, I want to thank you for watching. Hope to see you on the next segment of the Strategic CIO. For Steve and for myself, Phil Weinzimer, thank you for watching.